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Grotesque Chess. A variant of Capablanca's Chess with no unprotected Pawns. (10x8, Cells: 80) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Andreas Kaufmann wrote on Wed, Sep 22, 2004 07:15 AM UTC:
I have another idea how to improve Capablanca Chess. Just combine Fisher Random Chess and Capablanca Chess. So, each initial position will be randomly chosen with constraints similar to Fisher Random Chess (rooks to different sides of the King, Bishops on different colors etc.) What do you think about it?

David Paulowich wrote on Wed, Sep 22, 2004 01:25 PM UTC:
Andreas, you have just become the latest victim of Capablanca's Curse! Five hours before this variant arrived, I posted two comments on the 'Carrera's Chess' page. Carrera Random Chess actually uses a five-step procedure where both players have a hand in determining the final setup. No dice - no castling - no former world champions.

George Duke wrote on Wed, Sep 22, 2004 04:51 PM UTC:
Most outsiders would not know Guard and Equerry, having myself to click a few times to sort them out. Matter of particular array is relatively trivial compared to specific piece mix, since any initial position can be randomized. Fergus Duniho correctly points this assortment of pieces goes back 500 yrs.(Regina Rabiosa's debut), so hardly original. The form of castling is used also in Falcon Chess since 1995, and we still weigh whether King's moving liberally one or more would be more effective. Any other Rook arrival square than over and adjacent seems more like two moves.

🕸💡📝Fergus Duniho wrote on Wed, Sep 22, 2004 05:14 PM UTC:

George Duke writes:

Fergus Duniho correctly points this assortment of pieces goes back 500 yrs.(Regina Rabiosa's debut), so hardly original.

No, I didn't mention anything earlier than Carrera's Chess, which is just under 400 years old. I don't know what Regina Rabiosa is.

[EDIT: I now realize that Regina Rabiosa is Latin for Mad Queen, one of the original epithets for Modern Chess.]

🕸💡📝Fergus Duniho wrote on Wed, Sep 22, 2004 05:22 PM UTC:
<P>George Duke writes:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> The form of castling is used also in Falcon Chess since 1995. </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not quite. I quote from the page on Falcon Chess:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> Figure 23 shows that 'free castling' in Falcon Chess permits the king to move to any of the squares between itself and a rook in a castling move. </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>In Grotesque Chess, a King may not castle to an adjacent space. It must move at least two spaces in order to castle.</P>

🕸💡📝Fergus Duniho wrote on Wed, Sep 22, 2004 05:27 PM UTC:
Regarding the names Guard and Equerry, they seemed suitable for this game, because the Guard is placed next to the King, as though it is guarding it, Guard and Equerry feature some of the letters of Grotesque, particularly G and Qu, and Equerry strikes me as a bizarre, if not grotesque, name for a piece.

George Duke wrote on Wed, Sep 22, 2004 06:54 PM UTC:
The 'one or more' and 'two or more' options for King in castling are both in the 1996 patent claims themselves. [Falcon Chess did not originate with a Chess V.P. article in 2000.] See the other major Falcon Chess article from the next year 2001 on CVP, which was written in 1996 -- being the US Patent text itself -- based on inventors' notebook back to December 1992. Anyone can use this form of modified free castling, as I have called it, in any variant. I have no idea whether it was original with my Falcon Chess claims in 1996. Probably not. It is not crucial to the 8x10, 9x10, and 10x10 Falcon games; what made them patentable was the Falcon move itself in combination with other pieces in specific embodiments. I think both the castling forms are correct ideas in order to perfect large Chesses generally.

George Duke wrote on Wed, Sep 22, 2004 11:37 PM UTC:
Where Grotesque's form of castling used before, from Falcon Chess Patent Text Excerpts copied on this CVP, the two sentences before 'Conclusions, Ramifications and Scope': 'Still another variation modifies free castling, whereby the squares on which the King can stop are one fewer in number excluding the square closest to the King's initial position. This arrangement is intermediate between free castling and orthodox castling.' Written in 1996, the idea may have been used in an earlier patent but not spilled over to Pritchard's 1994 ECV.

🕸💡📝Fergus Duniho wrote on Wed, Sep 22, 2004 11:59 PM UTC:
I perused Pritchard's ECV today, and I did find one game that had a
castling rule like Grotesque Chess's. The game is Supercapablanca Chess,
a 12x8 version of Capablanaca's Chess. Its castling rule states that a
King may move two, three, or four spaces toward the Rook. Its castling
rule would be equivalent to that of Grotesque Chess within the context of
Grotesque Chess, though as I worded the rule for Grotesque Chess, its rule
would not be equivalent to that of Supercapablanca Chess on its longer
board, since it would also allow the King to move five spaces toward the
Rook.

If I needed to, I would have just reworded the rule to match that of
Supercapablanca Chess. But I am grateful that you're willing to let
anyone 'use this form of modified free castling ... in any variant.'

I came to this form of castling mainly from a programming perspective. In
Game Courier, I had been distinguishing castling from a King's usual move
by noting where the King moves to. But when I thought of implementing
unrestricted free castling, this wasn't going to work out. Even more of a
problem from a programming perspective was giving the Rook a choice of
which space to move to. As I thought about the matter more, I concluded,
as you have too, that unrestricted free castling is basically two moves in
one, and that makes castling too powerful.

Charles Gilman wrote on Thu, Sep 23, 2004 07:19 AM UTC:Good ★★★★
This arrangement of simple pieces opens a whole new debate. RB-N--N-BR
alone protects all but the d and g Pawns. Therefore any arrangement of the
four compound pieces will protect all Pawns as only one lacks the required
diagonal move. What are the relative merits of the 12 distinct
arrangements (or even just the 6 with a centralised King)?
	In case anyone is wondering, it may be worth stating that the origin of
the piece names used here is Bird's Chess.
	I agree with the others that this variant is far from grotesque. Perhaps
as the distinctive feature is having Knights so near the middle a good
name might be Mid(k)night Chess. On the other hand Grotesque Chess would
be a far better name for the variant currently called British Chess, which
was mentioned in an earlier comment.

🕸💡📝Fergus Duniho wrote on Thu, Sep 23, 2004 05:48 PM UTC:
<P>Charles Gilman writes:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> This arrangement of simple pieces opens a whole new debate. RB-N--N-BR alone protects all but the d and g Pawns. Therefore any arrangement of the four compound pieces will protect all Pawns as only one lacks the required diagonal move. </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You're right about that. I put the Knights so close to the center, because I knew I could protect all the Pawns by keeping pairs of diagonal moving pieces together. If I had put Knights in the same positions as Aberg had, not all Pawns would have been protected. I expect my reason for putting the Knights so close to the center blinded me to the fact that I could have then arranged the other pieces at will.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> What are the relative merits of the 12 distinct arrangements (or even just the 6 with a centralised King)? </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, I would favor keeping the King centralized. The six distinct arrangements you refer to are actually six sets of mathematically equivalent pairs. These are</P> <PRE> RBGNKQNEBR and RBENQKNGBR RBENKQNGBR and RBENQKNGBR RBQNKGNEBR and RBENGKNQBR RBENKGNQBR and RBQNGKNEBR RBGNKENQBR and RBQNEKNGBR RBQNKENGBR and RBQNEKNGBR </PRE> <P>The Grotesque Chess array is the third one down on the left. First, I favor eliminating each pair member that puts the White Queen on the King's right side. This is just to preserve the usual meanings of King-side and Queen-side. This leaves these:</P> <PRE> RBENQKNGBR RBENQKNGBR RBQNKGNEBR RBQNGKNEBR RBQNEKNGBR RBQNKENGBR </PRE> <P>Again, the Grotesque Chess array is the third one down. One factor to consider is which better balances the power of the pieces on both sides of the King. Since the Queen is more powerful than either Guard or Equerry, it would be one with the Queen on the King's left and Guard and Equerry on the King's right. These leaves these:</P> <PRE> RBQNKGNEBR RBQNKENGBR </PRE> <P>The first one is the Grotesque Chess array. The other one may be superior. It puts the weakest of the compound pieces in the center, and it separates the two compounds that move as Rooks. One thing I didn't like about Grotesque Chess was how easily the Queen and Guard could team up because of their proximity to each other, but I had regarded this as a necessary evil to protect all Pawns. I shall test this other arrangement and see if I wish to make it the new array for Grotesque Chess. This is a prerogative I take while the game is still in its infancy. I now have a ZRF that plays Grotesque Chess, and with just some slight modifications, I can do some playtesting with it.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> In case anyone is wondering, it may be worth stating that the origin of the piece names used here is Bird's Chess. </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It has already been stated on the page.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> I agree with the others that this variant is far from grotesque. </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, I'm pleased by that. But from the common Chess-is-the-only-Chess-variant-anyone-needs perspective, it probably is grotesque.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> Perhaps as the distinctive feature is having Knights so near the middle a good name might be Mid(k)night Chess. </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That may be the best suggestion I've heard so far. But I still like the name Grotesque Chess. It's a name that's harder for people to pass by without wondering what it's about.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> On the other hand Grotesque Chess would be a far better name for the variant currently called British Chess, which was mentioned in an earlier comment. </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No, you're quite wrong about that. British Chess is a beautiful game. Also, given how the game is so based on British heraldry and other British themes, it would be a grave insult to the British to call it by that name.</P>

🕸💡📝Fergus Duniho wrote on Fri, Sep 24, 2004 12:56 AM UTC:
I think I'll stick with the current setup. I like the symmetry of having two diagonal moving pieces next to each other on each side.

George Duke wrote on Fri, Sep 24, 2004 01:53 AM UTC:
In effect David Paulowich has invented or covered in his Carrera Chess comment 21.9.04 all the possible arrays by 'Carrera Random Chess' and its obvious extrapolations. CVP 'Free Castling Rule' written by Roger Cooper explains the Italian Rules prevalent before 1900. Chess Cafe's Tim Harding, recently cited in 'underpromotion' discussion, has old Kibitzer column 1998 'Bring Back Free Castling.' They like to alternate among Fischer Random, Free Castling and such as different scoring systems for Draws, in order to put life back into 64-square 'Mad Queen Chess'.

Charles Gilman wrote on Fri, Sep 24, 2004 07:38 AM UTC:
'Also, given how the game (British Chess) is so based on British heraldry
and other British themes, it would be a grave insult to the British to
call it by that name [Grotesque Chess].'
	Being British myself, I feel more qualified to what is a grave insult to
the British, and it is because I found the name British Chess insulting
that I suggested giving the variant of that name a different one
distancing it ftrom Britain while reflecting a British oppinion of it!
	Where do you want further discussion on the above topic,here or on the
British Chess page?

🕸💡📝Fergus Duniho wrote on Fri, Sep 24, 2004 12:42 PM UTC:
<P>Charles Gilman writes:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> Where do you want further discussion on the above topic,here or on the British Chess page? </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I will pick up this discussion on the British Chess page.</P>

Sam Trenholme wrote on Sat, Sep 25, 2004 03:33 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
I think this is a great idea! As it turns out, I independently came up with my own opening setup with leaves no piece undefended in the opening: RQNBKABNMR (where A moves like Bishop + Knight; M moves like Rook + Knight). There are actually a number of such possible setups. <p> - Sam

Anonymous wrote on Sat, Sep 25, 2004 07:18 AM UTC:
Another interesting idea for a large family of variants would be to arrange White based on one variant and Black based on another, not randomly but predeterminedly. In shorthand these might be termed things like 'Carrera's v Bird's'. The order (White first) would be significant as the first example would give different play from 'Bird's v Carrera's'. These would be intermediate between Chess with 'same' and 'different' armies, as the armies would start with the same pieces but in a different order. There is no rating as a further 'Good' would risk contributing to an unintended downrating.

David Paulowich wrote on Sat, Jan 15, 2005 07:33 PM UTC:
Reply to the 2004-09-24 comment by George Duke: Thanks for reminding me of The Kibitzer #31 'Bring Back Free Castling!'. I have used that article to add some improvements to my comments on the Carrera's Chess page. Also to comment on the Piececlopedia article on the 'Duke' (the piece named after you). <p>PAIRWISE DROP CHESS: free castling and no dice required!

Mark Thompson wrote on Thu, Jan 20, 2005 04:31 AM UTC:
Here's that page I couldn't find before, that describes how to make fairy
chessmen out of regular Staunton pieces:

http://www.chessvariants.org/crafts.dir/fairy-chess-pieces.html

It's listed in the alphabetical index under 'How to make ...', but I think 
it would be better to list it in the index page of the Crafts section:

http://www.chessvariants.org/crafts.dir/index.html

As I say, I've used the technique described to make a Marshall and
Cardinal, though I haven't followed the full instructions for
dismembering a whole chess set to make the full range of pieces the author
shows. But I have enough to make an attractive set for Grotesque Chess.

Gerd Meyer wrote on Thu, Sep 20, 2007 09:57 PM UTC:Good ★★★★
A good game which I tried out with some homemade paper pieces - a worthy enhancement of classical chess.

George Duke wrote on Thu, Jan 17, 2008 07:20 PM UTC:Poor ★
Progression. Twenty Comments here down to only 1 the last three years. Much ado about essentially nothing for 10 years 1996-2005 within venerable behemoth CVPage for 'new' starting arrays and tweaked castling principles after early 17th-Century Carrera's Chess. Finally, the particular genre of hair-splitting, evidenced now by inactivity, is laid to rest. Thirty-odd Carrera's derivatives, including famous Bird's and Capablanca's, clump together as failed attempts. Let us end the misery putting them down for the last time. Euthenize them, if it were figuratively possible, on the supposition that an idea has life. Creative Pietro Carrera's curiosities, Centaur(BN) and Champion(RN), original for their time, contemporaneous with Shakespeare and Pocahontas, came on the heels of 'defeat' of the Spanish Armada in 1588. Foredoomed in employing overwrought, ineffectual Chess-compounds, the stream of copycats for 400 years, one and all, proved destructive of critical skills and subtle play inherent in legendary, stand-alone utility Knight. R.I.P., Centaur. Requiescat in Pace, Champion.

Reinhard Scharnagl wrote on Wed, Jun 18, 2008 09:29 PM UTC:
'... support for the 'free' castling ...'

This is not clear to me. I think it over to possibly implement free castling into SMIRF, but still there is missing a detailed explanation of rules and notations (I would suggest: O-c-O if King is castling to column c). Where could I have a closer look?

H. G. Muller wrote on Thu, Jun 19, 2008 10:52 AM UTC:
I am still contemplating how to generalize the castling in Joker80. There are two issues there: how to commnicate the move from and to the GUI, and how to indicate the existence of the rights. Currently WinBoard protocol has two mechanisms to set up a position: by loading the engine with a FEN, or (obsolete) through an edit command to enter a list of pieces+squares combinations. The latter mode does not support transmission of castling rights at all, and is only a legacy for backward compatibility with old engines. So for loading position, we only have to provide a mechanism for indicating castling rights in a FEN.

The FRC-type notation only indicates the position of the Rook. The King does not need to be indicated in games where there is only one King, and the positioning of Rook w.r.t. King implies where both will end up. This means we would have to devise some other notation for cases where the King ends elsewhere. I am not sure if it would make sense to generalize so much as to allow castlings where the Rook does not end up next to, and on the other side of the King. There is of course no limit to the craziness of moves that could be called a castling, but one would have to put a limit somewhere, to not fall victim to the 'maximum-flexibility, minimum-usefulness' principle.

I would probably implement it like this: in the castling-rights field of the FEN, the letter indicating the file of the Rook that can castle (which does not necessarily have to be an orthodox Rook, as the FEN makes it obvious what piece is standing there) can be followed by a digit, indicating the number of squares the King ends up away from the corner. The final position of the Rook would be implied by this.

Example: normal King-side castling rights could be indicated by H1. The 1 would be the default (on an 8x8 board), and could be omitted for upward compatibility with Shredder-FEN. In Capablanca Chess the opening would have castling rights A2J1a2j1, equivalent to AJaj (or KQkq). Symmetric castling rights like in Janus Chess would be indicated as A1J1a1j1, or A1Ja1j when deleting the redundant defaults. Multiple castling rights to the same side could exist next to each other: A2A1J2J1a2a1j2j1 would allow short as well as long castling in both directions.

For transmitting the castling moves, one could use King captures own Rook. In games where the same Rook could be used for castlings with multiple King destinations, one could give the King step to its final destination in stead. If this could also be a normal King move, one could append an r as 5th character to identify it as a castling, using the syntax that would otherwise be used for promotions. In PGN one could use similar strategies to indicate non-orthodox castlings, and use suffix =R on a King move to specify castling.

I think this covers most cases encountered in practice. Problems only occur only if there would be multiple castlings with the same Rook, and at the same time castlings with a Rook on the left would have the same King destination as those with a Rook on the right. Because the move notation cannot indicate at the same time which Rook to use and specify where the King should go. But this seems to outlandish to worry about.

To cover cases where K and R do not end up next to each other, we could put a second digit in the FEN castling-rights specifier for the final position of the Rook wrt the corner. (I.e. normal king-side castling = h12.) This obviously could lead to problems on very wide boards, that require multiple digits to specify distance to the corner. So perhaps it is better to separate King and Rook destination by a period (h1.2). Indicating the move would be a problem, as two destinations might have to be specified to unambiguously identify the move (e.g. if all castlings are allowed weher the King steps any number of squares >=2 towards a Rook, and then the Rook can go to any square the King passed over.) One could just specify King and Rook final squares (i.e. O-O = g1f1), but in FRC there is no guarantee that this cannot be a normal move. In which case the 'r' could again be used as 5th character, to indicate castling. In PGN we could reserve a character used in stead of the piece indicator for castlings, say 'O'.

Conclusion: it is difficult to design a notation that would be general and universal; different games seem to need different ways to specify the moves and rights.

Reinhard Scharnagl wrote on Thu, Jun 19, 2008 11:54 AM UTC:
To H.G.M.: Harm, you are proposing a lot of things simultaneously. So let me answer slowly. There should be a main primary demand, that such an extended FEN should end in an IDENTICAL string, when applied to common chess variants. Otherwise I would not like to support it. There already has been a quarrel concerning X-FEN and Shredder-FEN, which is incompatible to that demand. Nevertheless in the early days of X-FEN I modified its definition concerning a less important element to also cover the proposed additional demand to have a partial castling string in FEN NEVER longer than 4 letters. I would like to preserve that state of the art of X-FEN.

Actually I would like as a first step to merely support castling rights, where the castling piece will be placed upon the next inner square neighbored to the (one only) castled King. The King will be placed by default THREE steps from the a-side performing 'O-O-O' and TWO steps from the other side performing 'O-O'. The algebraic notation should use source and target coordinate, when the king is moving at least two steps when castling with the most outside Rook. Otherwise the coordinate of the involved piece has to replace the (redundant) target square. This is for to serve two goals: a) to avoid a mixing up with traditional King's moves, b) to give the GUI a unique information, by which input gesture a castling should be intended without any doubt. Such a modification should not be interpreted as a 'capturing' of the involved piece, instead as a jostling it for to have it join the castling procedure. 

To encode the castling rights: the default is to address the most outer Rook by traditional letters 'Qq' for the a-side, 'Kk' for the opposite side. In any other case the column letter of the involved piece should be used: in upper case, where a white colored piece is addressed, in lower case, where that piece would be black colored.

Now to different castling methods: because such methods would target all possible castlings (never different methods for different pieces) it does not make sense to encode this related to the elementary castlings. Instead the whole partial castling string inside a FEN has to be addressed. In SMIRF I solve this by applying a special prefix letter, which has to be different from any possible column letter to avoid misinterpretations.

Now let me stop at this point, to have the written text being discussed.

H. G. Muller wrote on Thu, Jun 19, 2008 01:35 PM UTC:
Well, one has to think ahead a little bit to keep the road to future extensions open, and not paint oneself into a corner. This is why I tackle a fairly large number of cases at once.

I don't see the unicity of the FEN strings as a serious problem; if the logic behind the various systems would allow a certain castling to be described in multiple ways, one can supply an additional rule to specify which method should be used preferentially. e.g. if K or H could be used to unambiguously specify king-side castling, one should use K. In the FEN reader I would not even pay attention to that, and have it understand both, as this is usually easier.

An important issue is how much effort one should put into upkeeping a unified approach, in which both game state and played variant are unambiguously specified by the FEN. One might wonder if it is sensible to require, say, that a position from Janus Chess and a position from Capablanca Chess should be considered as different positions from the same variant, 'fullchess'. This puts a lot of extra burdon on the FEN:

For indicating game state, the castling rights have to indicate only which pieces moved. Wanting the FEN to specify the castling method, or other aspects of the rules (e.g. if Pawns can promote to Chancellors, or not), might just be asking for trouble.

So perhaps I was overdoing it. It might be more useful to consider variants like Janus or Grotesque as distinct from Capablanca. KQkq could then be used to indicate castling rights in all three cases. Games with more than 2 Rooks could use the Shredder-FEN system without any problem, as long as there is only one King (so that all rights disappear once this King moves). Only in games with multiple Kings AND multiple Rooks there would be a problem.

This only leaves move notation. In particular in variants where a castling to a particular side can be performed in more than one way, like in Grotesque. A very general way to solve this in PGN would be to provide a mechanism to specify moves that displace more than one piece, by joining the moves with an &. So an alternative to write h-side castling in Grotesque could be Ke1-i1&Rj1-h1 (or in short, Ki1&Rh1).

In WinBoard protocol, the moves between engine and GUI are not transmitted in SAN, but simply as FROM and TO square appended to each other, with an optional 5th character to indicate promotion piece (e.g. e7e8q). Perhaps the best system there would be to encode variable castlings by using k or q as the 'promotion' character, to indicate if the K-side or Q-side Rook is to be used, and make the squares indicate the to-square of King and Rook, respectively. These notations would always be recognizable as not indicating promotions, as both the mentioned squares would be on the same rank.

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