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H.G.Muller wrote on Tue, Apr 22, 2008 07:21 AM UTC:

To Joe: Well, I already applied for member status a week ago, so that I
could edit my own posts, and others would not have to wait 24 hours to see
mine. But, quite frankly, I am not aware having said anything that requires
editing. I do not consider remarking that a theory that doesn't explain
the observations is 'nonsense', or that program A beats program B by a
large margin 'ad hominems'. Theories and programs are not people. It is
a pity that some people take such remarks as a personal offense.

I would applaud a piece-value item. Therefore I will defer directly
addressing your questions below until I know where to post the answers, as
they certainly would be off topic w.r.t. the Aberg variant. So I will only
say now that my aim is to get good EMPIRICAL piece values for all common
fairy pieces in the context of (approximately) normal Chess (i.e. in a
game with an orthodox King as royal piece, and orthodox, or at least
Shatranj-type Pawns that promote to a piece as powerful as a Queen). I
especially developed the Fairy-Max engine for this project. So if you
create an item about piece value, I will be able to provide a lot of hard
facts in the coming year. (And faster if other people would be prepared to
participate and donate their computer time to the project.)

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Comments

Aberg variation of Capablanca's Chess. Different setup and castling rules. (10x8, Cells: 80)

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 04:43 PM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| But the point is that this does not alter the piece values.

Right, though that might be just a preferred way to structure theory because it suits human thinking. Essentially, define contexts, and attach values to them. First define piece values in nutralk settings. Then observe that the bishop pair gets an added value. Then try to figure out values for good and poor bishops. And so on. By contrast, computers tend to be very poor at handling such contexts, so other methods might be suitable for programs.

Derek Nalls wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:26 PM UTC:

Muller:

You have my best regards toward your worthwhile effort to publish your
empirical, statistical method for obtaining the material values of pieces
in the ICGA Journal.  My assessment is that it will surely be a much
better paper than the junk [name removed] published in the same journal
regarding piece values.

[The above has been edited to remove a name and/or site reference. It is
the policy of cv.org to avoid mention of that particular name and site to
remove any threat of lawsuits. Sorry to have to do that, but we must
protect ourselves. -D. Howe]

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:22 PM UTC:

Sure, this is what people do and have done for ages. It is well known that the advantage of having the move is worth 1/6 of a Pawn, (corresponding in normal Chess to a white score of 53-54%) and that, by inference, wasting a full move is equivalent to 1/3 of a Pawn.

But the point is that this does not alter the piece values. It just adds to them, like every positional advantage adds to them. In my test the advantage of having the lead move is neutralized by playing every position both with white to move and black to move.

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 11:50 AM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet
| positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move.

At the beginning of the game, white is thought to have a slight advantage, and the first task of black will be attempting to neutralize that. And it might be possible set a picee value to that positional advantage, just as when reasoning in terms of getting positional compensation for a sacrifice. Somewhat less han a pawn, perhaps. If one knows about the black/white winning statistics, one might be able to set a value on it that way. It may not be usable for a computer program as it does not change sides, but only computes the relative values of moves.

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 10:34 AM UTC:

As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move. A position where it matters who has the move is by definition nont quiet, as one ply later that characteristic will have essentially changed. So at the level of piece-value strategies, Chess is a perfectly symmetric game.

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